By Shola Oshunkeye
He fired from all cylinders in the first part of the interview that we published on April 28, 2013. Blunt, as ever, he spared no word in condemning the evil of terrorism that had cast a spell and a pall of gloom on our country these few years. After a comprehensive evaluation of the situation, His Eminence, Dr. Sunday Olatunji Makinde, Prelate of the Methodist Church Nigeria, who turns 70 this October, kicked against amnesty for Boko Haram, preferring that the murderous gang be subjected to the full weight of the laws of the land.
Wherever the Prelate is now, he must be grinning from ear to ear at dramatic the turn of events on the security situation in the country, which saw President Goodluck Jonathan imposing an indefinite state of emergency on the troubled states of Borno, Yobe and Adamawa. Even if he did not canvass it directly, the Methodist Church Prelate had, in the said interview, called for drastic action against all the terror merchants that have turned our country to one huge hell on earth.
Today, we continue the encounter with Dr. Makinde, who submitted that the convocation of a sovereign national conference is not negotiable at this point in Nigeria's history. At the country's current crossroads, the prelate said Nigeria must talk frankly or be doomed forever. He also counseled other good-willed men and women in the country to continue to pray for Nigeria and work for its peace, for it is for their sake God has spared the nation from the cliff it has been precariously perching.
"We still have saints in Nigeria today, both in Islam and Christianity, men and women at the heart of God," he said. "That is why God has not destroyed this country."
The Head of the Methodist Church also spoke on other issues, like gay marriage, which he described as "taboo", "evil", "dirty" and "against the order of God and nature".
Please, read on.
You were taking about how the colonialists tried to rubbish our traditional religions. But there are people here who can't even see any merit in our traditional religions?
My grandfather was an Osun and Ifa worshipper. I am from Ibadan, Oyo State. And I can tell you that he was holier than most Christians around now. My grandfather was as holy as a Pope. The point is: we (Africans; nay, Nigerians) don't worship our ancestors. We venerate our ancestors.
Yet, you had an Orisa (small god) in your family?
Of course.
Does the Orisa still exist up till now?
No, no.
When did it stop existing?
It stopped existing because nobody was ready to continue its worship. We have seen Christ. We have seen the light. Then, they were worshipping within the limit of their knowledge of God. But it should not be described in derogatory language, because when they (the British) came, they came with colonisation. Colonisation is evil. And they partitioned us. Look at Cotonou that ought to be part of Nigeria, but speaking French. Look at Ghana and Togo. It is even good with the British, because with the French, it was total assimilation. They eat French, breathe French, dress, dance French, drink French wine, and so on. We are even better off because the British allowed us to be ourselves.
When they came, they took over our government. Though incompatible, they forced us together in 1914 in what they called amalgamation. That incompatibility is what we are suffering today. What have we achieved? We have gone to war. We are still living in fear of that war today. Let us come together and talk, debate, dialogue. God even says, 'Come, let us sit together.'
I am appealing, it is should not be amnesty first. If we give it now, they will still go back because the root cause of the problem has not been addressed. Let us address the root cause of our problem. Amnesty is not the cause of our problem. Let us ask these boys: 'Why are you fighting?' Don't be hostile to them; be kind to them. Let us find out why they are fighting. Then, amnesty will come. Then, compensation will follow.
Did you say the amalgamation of 1914 was evil?
No, I didn't say that. I said colonisation was evil. Amalgamation is not evil because it integrated us, and we have been living for 100 years. But it has been 100 years without rest of mind, without progress.
Are you saying we don't have much to celebrate at 100?
What are you celebrating? At 100, are you celebrating killings, shedding of blood, coup upon coup, instability in government, hatred, Boko Haram and what have you? Do you know that the number of people we have lost as a result of Boko Haram is more than the people we lost during the civil war? What we are celebrating is that we thank God for seeing us through the civil war.
With due respect, that may not be correct sir. In the civil war, we lost about one million people while to Boko Haram we've lost about 3000 people.
They have not recorded the secret killings. Go to Jos, secret killings are still going on in the villages. Do we keep statistics in Nigeria? We don't.
So, you think we have lost more than we did in the civil war?
Even if it's a quarter of it, it is too much. It is not good. Yet, this is what can be averted through dialogue. How I hate this amnesty thing. They are talking about amnesty when they should apply the laws of the land. Which one is greater: the laws of the land or amnesty? We applied the law of the land to Henry Okar. It should not be amnesty. Let us dialogue with these boys first. Dialogue preceded amnesty to the Niger Delta boys. We knew why they were fighting. Why are these people (Boko Haram) fighting and killing people in the barracks, killing Christians in the churches, in the gardens, at home? They went to the United Nations building and bombed the place. Even, one boy (Mutallab) wanted to blow up an aeroplane. Are they also going to ask the international community to grant him amnesty in the US prison where he is?
Years ago, there was this impression that the rules in the Anglican Church, Methodist Church were so relaxed that people belonged to secret societies and they flaunted it openly. How far have you gone with the war against secret cults and occultism in your church?
You are not current. I say so because we have been fighting the war against secret societies for many years in Nigeria. It became really hot in 1976. We have just finished one award of service. Before you are made a new president or before we award you Knight of John Wesley, you must take an oath in the church not to ever belong to any secret society. And any day we discover that you are in a secret society, if you die, Methodist Church would never bury you. Of course, we don't bury them, because you can't serve God and mammon. That is it. It is clear. That is why I said you are living in the past. You can even be a minister or whatever, but immediately we discover you are a member of any secret society, we remove you.
How about gay marriage?
Don't even talk about that. It is dirty. As you say it, it is very dirty in my ear and dirty in your mouth. It is un-African. It is un-biblical. How are you going to procreate? There would be extinction within the next 50 years if we go all the way with that madness. You can't even practice it in any village here. It is a taboo.
But gay rights people would argue that they have the right to live their lives the way their own God created them.
Not in Africa. Let them live where they are.
But there are people who are openly gay now in Nigeria. They talk about it openly.
The one that came out, the family denied him. They talk about it, but let them come out in the open and say, 'I am a gay, it is my right.' The society would condemn you for being a lesbian, for being a gay. It is not acceptable in our society. Can you or any member of your family come out and say, 'I am a gay', and you would be proud to say, yes, he or she is a member of my family? No, because it is a disgrace to your family. And you cannot say he belongs to one church because it would be a disgrace to that church.
Okay, sir, if you find a Methodist Church member who is an openly gay person, can you excommunicate that person?
Within 24 hours, that person would be excommunicated.
But the member so excommunicated can go to court and challenge the church...
He cannot challenge us. The fact is that you are free to be a member, but we say this is our own law, if you don't keep it, you are at liberty to go to another church.
But you would be denying that member the right to live the way he or she wants to live it.
We are not denying him his right, but if he says he cannot abide by our own law, he should go. Even if you are my own son, I can disown you for perversion. If he decides to go that way, to be a gay, I would let him know that he cannot belong to my family. I have the right to say 'this is the law we keep in the church, and if you cannot keep to it, you cannot be a member of our society.' For you to be in Nigeria, you must keep the laws of Nigeria. You can't be a Nigerian if you cannot keep the laws of Nigeria. That is the point I am making. We are brothers and sisters in Nigeria, and that is why we are saying to members of the Boko Haram, come let us talk together. I am not against amnesty, but something must precede amnesty. That is dialogue, talking together.
And that is why some of us are talking about calling a national conference or whatever name you chose to call it so that we can come and reason together on how we are going to live together as brothers and sisters, as easterner and westerners, as northerners and southerners without problems of religion, race, ethnicity, indigenes and non-indigenes. And then, they should know the feelings of those of us who have lost members, who have lost properties, who have lost so many things. They should not only give amnesty to offenders, they should consider the feelings of those who have been victims.
What is the worst day of your life? And what makes it so?
(Keeps quiet for some time...)Worst day? When I lost my mother and when I lost my father.
At what age?
They were old. I wouldn't say that they should not die. I couldn't call it the worst day. I want to thank God for their lives. I have been through trials and tribulations, but I would not say they are worst days. I must be thankful to God. God has not given me a worst day. And I hope God would not give me a worst day until I die. I hope not. But I must give thanks to God in all situations. Even when things are terrible, once I go on my knees, the worst would turn to the best.
What are some of those terrible things that you have had to go though in life?
A lot. I have been through so many terrible disappointments in my life that God has turned to appointments. When I was young and I wanted to write entrance exams to become a teacher at Wesley College, those were terrible years. For five years, I was writing exams to Baptist College, Iwo, University College, Ibadan, St. Andrew's College, Oyo and I was failing.
Was it that you weren't brilliant?
To me, I was brilliant, but God did it for a purpose because He wanted me to experience terrible pains, poverty, hunger, insecurity, so that I would be able to help such people when I come across them. That is my interpretation of it. There was a time I had only one pair of trousers. So, I know what it means when I read the portion of the bible that says: 'When I was hungry, you gave me food; when I was naked, you clothed me...'
But your parents were alive when you were going through all these?
They were alive and in the village. Even if they wanted to train me, I didn't pass exams to any college. Those were the colleges I wanted because those who taught me in modern school attended those schools, and that was why I wanted to go there also. My parents were advising me to go and have a change of heart, be a mechanic, be a carpenter, be this, be that, but I refused. I told them I didn't want any of those things.
I went through a lot of hardship, but I didn't know that God was preparing me for the future. So, if you are undergoing terrible things, God may be using those things to prepare you for the future. God knows where everybody is going. God promised Joseph that he would be somebody, but he was a prisoner. Before you take the crown, you have to suffer. You must first take the torn.
Like I said, those five years I was writing entrance exams were terrible years. I survived it and gained admission. But immediately I went in there, it was a smooth ride al the way. I even got my PhD before those who went there 30 years before me. So, God has a plan for everybody. God has good plans for you, but before you reach your destination, you have to cross many hurdles.
You said something about days of sorrows. What are the specific sorrows you passed through?
(Again, he pauses momentarily, and fights back tears...) It is not only when you lose dear ones that you have sorrow. Disappointments could be big sorrow. Poverty is deep sorrow. I have gone through real poverty in my life. I have gone through big disappointments in my life. I have gone through disappointments, even as we talk. Friends can turn to be enemies, especially while you are at the top. That is why people are becoming hypertensive. Disappointment can make you sick. Jesus, when he sat down for the last supper, said: 'My heart is sorrowful'. When he knew that his own friend, and treasurer, the only Judea among His disciples would betray him, he was sorrowful. In His sorrow, He said it would have been better if he (Judas Iscariot) had not been born. I tell you, the heart of man is evil, it is dirty; only God can know it.
What is the biggest disappointment you have suffered in life?
You can't just isolate one, because every disappointment I get turns to appointment. That is my joy. When you are with God, no sorrow will overwhelm you. One thing I remember that really gave me so much sorrow was when I lost my parents. My father was a great disciplinarian. I was holding my father to my chest. When I held his hand and it dropped, I wept, because there was a time that hand gave me 45 strong lashes of the cane for the sin I never committed. When I saw the hand dropped, I said, 'Oh, this is the hand that trained me. It is no more.' I wept.
How old was he when he died?
He was 85. He died peacefully in 1990.
What about mama?
Mama died at 86 or so in my house at Ikeja. I was archbishop then. Both of them died at old age. My mother-in-law died two weeks ago at 92. My wife was the only child. I married the daughter of the Chief Imam of Ibadan. I am a child of promise, a child of destiny. It would amount to ingratitude to God for me to say this is my worst day. Why should you have a worst day when you can pray? Your worst day may be the best day tomorrow. Without Good Friday, there can never be Easter Sunday. It was a bad Friday; Sunday makes it a Good Friday. It was a bad Friday for Jesus, but the resurrection makes it a Good Friday. All my bad days, worse days, my position now has made them good.
How many children do you have?
I am a traditional man. And in my tradition, we don't count children. But I have good children who are doing great. They are all graduates.
What drove you into priesthood?
It was the inspiration from my parents.
How?
Everything about them was church. They loved education, and they sent me even to teachers and missionaries to live with them, until one of them, whom I buried lavishly last year, said you are going to a teacher. In those days, you dare not say no. I lived with him for 14 years. But when I came out from the University College, Ibadan, I said yes, I have made it. I became a Grade 2 teacher, and I was so happy. The salary was a lot of money then. But the more I ran away from God, the more He closed in on me. I was made me a master at Ago Iwoye before I was transferred to Agodi. I taught for some years before I was called into ministry. But the story will not be complete without mentioning the life-changing roles that some of our fathers in the Lord played in making me whatever I am today. Straight to the point, I got called into ministry through the encouragement of Bishop Stephen Oyeyemi Olaoye, the Rev. Nathaniel Oduyebo Salako, the second President of Methodist Church Nigeria, and Bishop Albert Olusola Orekoya, the first Bishop of Ibadan Diocese. These great men of faith played very important roles in whatever I may have become today.
I had my ministerial training at Immanuel College of Theology and Christian Education where I obtained my Diploma in Religious Studies, and also the University of Ibadan for my Diploma in Theology, which I got with distinction. I served as Minister in Ikole Circuit, Ifaki Diocese, and Yaba Circuit, Lagos Mainland Diocese, before I gained admission to the University of Calabar for my BA in Religious Studies. I graduated in 1979 with Second Class Upper Division. I was posted to Olowogbowo Cathedral, Lagos Diocese, as minister and was at the College of Education, Ijanikin, Lagos, where I served as lecturer for two years. I got my Doctor of Ministry Degree from the United Theological Seminary Minnesota, United States of America, in 1984. I consecrated Bishop on January 20, 1985.
What is your attitude to money?
Money is good and bad. When money governs you, it becomes a bad servant. It can destroy faster than anything. The love of money is the root of all evils, especially to we men of God. I have seen ministers who have embezzled church money. It is lack of contentment. God would bless you without touching church money. If you are a civil servant, God can bless you without having to embezzle money. That is why I said money has both its good and bad sides. But if you acquire your money in a divine way, in a correct way, God will bless you.
Is it possible to be a billionaire in this country without being crooked? Without playing dirty games? Making it in God's way?
It is more than possible to be a billionaire, even a trillionaire, by divine means in this country because when you are honest with your God, He would embarrass you with blessings. It's not every billionaire you have in Nigeria today got their wealth through bad means. Not all of them. We still have faithful people in Nigeria today. In fact, that is why we are surviving. We still have saints in Nigeria today, both in Islam and Christianity, men and women at the heart of God. That is why God has not destroyed this country.
Via: Sun News Online