Asiwaju Bisi Adegbuyi, a legal practitioner, human rights activist and politician is a chieftain of Pro National Conference Organisation (PRONACO). He was also an Action Congress (AC) Ogun East Senatorial candidate. Adegbuyi, a chieftain of the Afenifere Renewal Group (ARG), in this interview with TEMITOPE OGUNBANKE, speaks extensively on the proposed national dialogue, warned that it would be suicidal to send the report of the national dialogue to the National Assembly. He also speaks on other national issues. Excerpts:
As one of the advocates of a national conference and PRONACO chieftain, how do you see the move by President Goodluck Jonathan to convene a national dialogue?
My first reaction would be that it is long overdue and any patriotic president should see the need for Nigerians to come together, sit down and dialogue on the nationality questions. How do we want to live together harmoniously? This is because in living together it is important for different ethnic nationalities that make up Nigeria to live together harmoniously.
That is the only way we can commence the arduous task of nation building. It is evident that Nigeria, as it is presently constituted, is not working. We all know the problems. We are at a crossroads, and for me the blame game should be stopped because this country belongs to every single one of us. If we allow it to disintegrate, it is an ill wind that will blow nobody any good.
So, as somebody who has been involved in the struggle for the convocation of a Sovereign National Conference, I will always appreciate anybody that thinks the way I have been thinking; that shares my philosophy about how to govern Nigeria. Therefore, it is a welcome development. How far can we go, is another question all together.
But some people have described the national conference as Greek gift, poisonous apple and diversionary. What is your view?
I will simply react to that by saying that trust, which is an essential ingredient in governance is totally lacking in Nigeria. We have been witnesses to presidents and governments in the past promising to do one thing and ending up doing another thing. That is one. Secondly, one cannot totally dismiss, with the wave of the hand the reservation being expressed by some people.
They are meritorious and these are reservations being expressed by leaders of thought in Nigeria and therefore we must critically examine the whole scenario. Yes, it does appear to me to be a Greek gift. Yes, it does appear to me to be diversionary, having regard to the antecedents of President Jonathan.
Recall that he has vehemently opposed to the idea of convoking a national conference but then doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt. Is it not the hallmark of a good leader to change his mind in the light of present realities and circumstances?
For me we have to seize the moment from President Jonathan not withstanding his motives and intentions. Indeed because sovereignty resides in Nigerian people, this is the time to assert ourselves, rise up to the occasion, seize the moment and hijack the process from President Jonathan so that at the end of the day even if he has ulterior motives, in my view we should be able to convert that cynicism to an advantage.
How do you think it will be possible for Nigerians to hijack the process considering President Jonathan's position that the report of the national dialogue would be submitted to the National Assembly?
It is unfortunate. It doesn't appear that, with due respect to Mr. President, he understands the dynamics of what we are talking about. In my view, he is not well grounded on this issue of sovereignty or Sovereign National Conference and that is why he has been flip-flopping. In one place he will say we have gone beyond national conference and in another place he will say, I think this is the time for us to talk. So, we have to sympathise with him. Chief Obafemi Awolowo of blessed memory said that only the deep can come to the deep.
I would rather give him a benefit of the doubt to resolve all the doubts in his favour. But it would be suicidal and completely unacceptable for the report of a national conference that has representatives of the people, who are the ultimate custodian of sovereignty, to have whatever report they have come up with sent to the National Assembly. It is like putting something on nothing and it is important for us to remind members of National Assembly that they should stop contesting sovereignty with Nigerian people.
What they have is simple mandate renewable at the end of four years. The overwhelming power which is sovereignty in a given state still reside with the Nigerian people and they reserve the right to have their decisions on whatever they want done in Nigeria to be given effect to because they are in the majority.
You said sending the report of the national conference to the National Assembly would be suicidal but many are of the view that making the conference to be sovereign is like silencing the National Assembly, which has the constitutional power to make law. What do you have to say?
That is not correct. The National Assembly can go on to make laws for the day to day running of Nigeria. They can continue to exercise their power as enshrined in the 1999 Constitution but the arduous task of bringing to live a new constitution is an exclusive preserve of a Constituent Assembly. In this instant, the National Conference that we are talking about, the Nigerian people can give dual mandate to different institutions. The Nigerian people can simultaneously empower the members of the National Assembly to continue to make laws for Nigeria and at the same time they can also confer another mandate on different set of people to draw up a brand new constitution for Nigeria. The Nigerian people have the unquestionable power and nobody should contest that power with Nigerian people.
Some are advocating for the convening of the national conference before 2015 general elections, arguing that the move by President Jonathan to convene a national conference less than two years to the general election is suspicious. How would you react to this?
It raises legitimate suspicion. Why do you want to organise a conference some one or two years before the end of your tenure. I agree with people who are not comfortable with that but again, what do we do? Jettison the idea of a national conference and go for an election? Have we not been conducting elections in Nigeria and what have we benefitted?
Elections are not an end in themselves, elections are a means to an end: organise free and fair elections, get true representative of the people to be elected in office who will in turn deliver the proverbial dividends of democracy.
But we have seen that since 1999; 14 years down the line, we have not really benefitted from this democracy. It is either we are doing something wrong or that elections in themselves had some limitations in terms of governance in Nigeria.
We cannot do without elections but I believe that we need to cure the systemic defects within the Nigerian state in order for us to benefit from conducting elections. If we go for an election the way Nigeria is presently configured, that is a recipe for disaster because clearly it is evident that the North and the South are angling for power. And all over the world, where you have vicious contest of power between the North and the South, it always leads to disintegration. So, that is there for you to see.
The North and South of America went to war because of power struggles. Examples are there for us to see and I do not think that is the rout that we should go. We need to resolve all the nagging issues in Nigeria and then go for elections. It can be managed, it can be done if we are serious minded. Within nine months we can sort out all the contending issues and then we go for elections in 2015.
I do not think election should come before national conference. Even though, to be honest, it does appear that President Jonathan has a hidden agenda but Nigerian people can rise up to the occasion and seize initiative from him so that even if he has a hidden agenda, that agenda will not see the light of the day.
Do you think there should be a no-go area when the national conference is convened?
All issues should be open for discussion. It must be a no hold barred discussion. There must be nothing that would be called no-go areas; all matters should come up for discussion, including the unity of Nigeria. We cannot continue to deceive ourselves that we must not discuss the unity of Nigeria.
Unity is a negotiation; it is about discussion and it is about give and take and therefore, we must discuss the unity of Nigeria whether indeed we are ready to continue to live together as one or if we are tired. If we can no longer accommodate ourselves let us know and then we decide on what to do. But I can tell you from my experience from the Nigeria that I know, once we have an equitable political system that allows each geo-political zone to develop at its own space, I am very certain that majority of Nigerians would want to live together.
But people will become centrifugal if aspirations are not met, if university education will not serve the purpose for which education is met. Education is about empowering yourself; it is about acquisition of skill and after acquiring it, you still can't fit into the system because there is no job, then there is a problem. But if you have a system which encourages industrialisation, which encourages people on what we call self actualisation, then everybody will be happy.
The truth of the matter is that the Nigerian state that we have now is depriving Nigerians of the opportunity of self development and it is because of the systemic failure that we have, defective political system that is standing in the way of Nigerian people. Nigerian people are very industrious. They have the means and ability to be one of the best in the world but the Nigerian government is standing in the way of the Nigerian people and that is where the problem lies.
Considering the manner the 2005 National Political Reforms Conference (NPRC) ended without some of the recommendations of the conference been utilised and the refusal of the government to act on the PRONACO National Conference draft document, don't you foresee the process of national dialogue started by President Jonathan ending the way previous conferences did?
I believe the circumstances are different and the dynamics are different. Any leader in Nigeria today, who attempts to play game with Nigerian people, will get consumed because tempers are flaring. Nigeria is at the precipice and if we don't go about it very carefully, there will be an implosion and that is why I believe President Jonathan should be conscious of his place in history. He must be sincere; he must be honest and must prepare to do the right thing in order for generations of Nigeria yet unborn to remember him.
I think the moment is here with us and Nigeria people should seize the moment and change the fortune of Nigeria. Let us rise up to the occasion and allow people of stellar ability to be nominated or elected into the national conference so that they can come up with profound recommendations that would put Nigeria on the path of development; sustainable development for further matter that will ensure that Nigeria becomes a country where every citizen will be able achieve his aspiration, where we should be able to make available the greatest good to the greatest number and not the greatest evil to the greatest number of people.
That is what is happening to the people of Nigeria today. Very few people are benefiting fairly from the country while majority of Nigerians continue to live in abject poverty. This must stop otherwise there would be a big implosion. Nigeria must restructure otherwise it will rupture.
Source: Nigeria must restructure in order not to rupture –Bisi Adegbuyi (http://nationalmirroronline.net/new/nigeria-must-restructure-in-order-not-to-rupture-bisi-adegbuyi/)